Bruce was still in the band, at least the touring band, through to the beginning of April 1972, so that definitely post-dated at least some of the "So Tough" sessions. I don't know how present Bruce was for the actual "So Tough" sessions, but he was in the band up until about a month before "So Tough" came out.![]()
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
Bruce clearly wasn't enamoured with the idea and sabotaged it by hiding the tape before they could add finishing touches.
Now I can't get a picture out of my mind of Bruce - dressed as The Hamburglar - sneaking around and hiding a tape, then wiping down the area to erase fingerprints. It's no wonder Bruce left. I wonder where he hid the tapes?
Talk about dysfunction. Reminds me of the type of dysfunctional stuff that happened later in the 70s, with Brian's fridge being padlocked.
More evidence for my theory that Bruce is actually the funniest Beach Boy, just by being a dick in the most incomprehensible ways possible. Marilyn got really upset about it and even made Bruce phone him to apologise.
And "funniest" is being generous. In a band with Brian Wilson (a guy that weirded out some of the most crazy rock luminaries of the day), Dennis Wilson (a guy who was buds with Manson for a while, and who went toe-to-toe if not surpassed the likes of Moon and Bonham while sometimes even hanging with them), and Mike Love (rightly or wrongly with the rep as one of the big a-holes in the history of rock/pop), I've long contended it may well just be that, ironically, Bruce Johnston is the weirdest of them all.
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
Bruce clearly wasn't enamoured with the idea and sabotaged it by hiding the tape before they could add finishing touches.
Now I can't get a picture out of my mind of Bruce - dressed as The Hamburglar - sneaking around and hiding a tape, then wiping down the area to erase fingerprints. It's no wonder Bruce left. I wonder where he hid the tapes?
Talk about dysfunction. Reminds me of the type of dysfunctional stuff that happened later in the 70s, with Brian's fridge being padlocked.
More evidence for my theory that Bruce is actually the funniest Beach Boy, just by being a dick in the most incomprehensible ways possible. Marilyn got really upset about it and even made Bruce phone him to apologise.
And "funniest" is being generous. In a band with Brian Wilson (a guy that weirded out some of the most crazy rock luminaries of the day), Dennis Wilson (a guy who was buds with Manson for a while, and who went toe-to-toe if not surpassed the likes of Moon and Bonham while sometimes even hanging with them), and Mike Love (rightly or wrongly with the rep as one of the big a-holes in the history of rock/pop), I've long contended it may well just be that, ironically, Bruce Johnston is the weirdest of them all.
Bruce's favorite Honeys song is undoubtedly Hide Go Seek (With Tapes)
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
He does actually talk about visiting Alan and Mark with his tapes a few years back, and Alan mentioned the same thing in the recent Q&A. They have the session tape for Sweet and Bitter but Don managed to hold on to the master take with Mike's lead. Alan also said he "really liked what he did with that Sweet and Bitter tape" ... maybe meaning later overdubs? There's nothing directly about it in the book though.
To clarify some things: Don wrote Sweet and Bitter alone, but Brian rewrote the chorus chords. (Out) In the Country was started by Brian with the line "I can't see me falling in love" and the rest of the verse music, before Don changed that line, wrote most of the rest of the lyrics and added the chorus. Brian then wrote the bridge himself. The organ + Al lead version definitely came later - Don didn't even know about it until decades down the line when he discovered it via a bootleg. It might be from the Holland sessions after all. Seems like Brian produced all of the above.
To clarify some things: Don wrote Sweet and Bitter alone, but Brian rewrote the chorus chords. (Out) In the Country was started by Brian with the line "I can't see me falling in love" and the rest of the verse music, before Don changed that line, wrote most of the rest of the lyrics and added the chorus. Brian then wrote the bridge himself. The organ + Al lead version definitely came later - Don didn't even know about it until decades down the line when he discovered it via a bootleg. It might be from the Holland sessions after all. Seems like Brian produced all of the above.
Thanks for the additional details. I do now remember a bit that Alan Boyd had commented on "Sweet and Bitter." So presumably if they wanted to issue it with Mike's lead, they'd need to use Goldberg's tape.
It's one of the best Mike leads of that era, so it deserves a release on an archival package.
Presented as a "1972" song, Goldberg's tape just sounds rather anachronistic because of what sound like late 70s/early 80s synths and whatnot. It definitely doesn't sound at all like "So Tough" recordings. But it may well be that the original 1972 backing track is too sparse or has other issues, so the Goldberg tape may be a better presentation of the song.
I'm curious if Goldberg still has the multis for his songs; they could then presumably graft Mike's lead onto the backing track that BRI still has (or just mix out the newer overdubs on Goldberg's tape).
As far as the chances of "So Tough" being issued with some random dude singing one of the songs, I have trouble believing all of the other band members (nor potentially the label) would have gone along with that. I know they had done the track with Rieley singing, but he was the band's manager and could more easily push that sort of stuff through. But you have to wonder if Warner would have looked at "So Tough" and thought "Okay, so there's only 8 or 9 songs on this, and you have seven or eight fully capable lead vocalists in the band, yet you've had a random guy from outside of the band sing one of the songs?"
We also know other instances of a vaguely similar nature were met with the band steamrolling (rightly or wrongly) over outside interlopers. Billy Hinsche's lead on "Honkin' Down the Highway" wasn't used. Bob Burchman has his harrowing tale of being steamrolled on "It's About Time", and Ed Carter's "Surfer Suzie" got shelves supposedly/allegedly because he wouldn't fork over credit and/or royalties, or some such thing.
Knowing Brian, and how crazy things were in that era, Goldberg's song and vocal ending up on "So Tough" isn't like a 100% impossibility in my mind. But I'd lean more towards "unlikely" than "likely" under any circumstance I can think of. It sounds like Goldberg rightly was aware there was a good chance the track wouldn't actually make the cut, with or without Bruce allegedly "hiding" the tape.
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Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread!
I dont know how much info is really available in terms of Carls alleged vetoing of Soulful Old Man Sunshine from the 1993 GV boxed set, but the impression I always got (which may be totally off) is that he had a larger distaste or skepticism or uneasiness about the song, or at least the extant recording. I think he still remembered it being an unfinished song, and perhaps the Shunshine thing was just one example of it clearly being unfinished, as they presumably would have gone back and fixed that if they had intended to release it back then. Indeed, I believe the 1998 Endless Harmony version of the song had to be stitched together from a few sources (resulting in some parts being mixed into wider stereo, some parts having more finished-sounding overdubs while others didnt, etc.) to make the most complete version.
Im not sure, but I have a vague recollection Al (or someone) didnt want Loop de Loop on the 1993 GV boxed set because it was considered unfinished.
Im not sure, but I have a vague recollection Al (or someone) didnt want Loop de Loop on the 1993 GV boxed set because it was considered unfinished.
It seems that the "Soulful" release is of a vintage edit of rough mixes spliced together back in the day by Dennis Dragon (who was Rick Henn's brother-in-law). Rick talks about it in a 1997 ESQ article (this was a year before the song's release). I first heard it when it was played down the phone line by David Leaf to Domenic Priore and me in '92, during the assembly of the '93 Good Vibrations box set. Meaning, it existed in that state back then, and based on Rick's comments, probably long before that.
As for "Loop" - correct, Al vetoed its release until '98 because he considered it unfinished until then.
Excellent info, thanks!
I definitely remembered reading that the released "Soulful" mix was a hodge podge of mixes, basically piecing something together with slightly unfinished parts. Even if I hadn't read that, the track on the EH Soundtrack clearly indicates it is taken from more than one source, and more than one mix. Interesting that it comes from a vintage mix.
I recall reading some other details at some point about the state of the extant tapes for "Soulful", how apparently some elements of what we hear on the released mix don't exist on any extant multi-tracks, only on whatever rough mixes exist.
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Re: 1998/1999 unreleased Al Jardine album
Middle of Nowhere, Waves of Love and Jenny Clover are available on Larry's Soundcloud page:
https://soundcloud.com/user-418742223
https://soundcloud.com/user-418742223
Anyone know if the Middle Of Nowhere is the same version that was released on an ESQ freebie CD of yesteryear?
Without having it to listen to at this moment, I would say it almost certainly has to be the same song. There is a Matt Jardine track, Middle of Nowhere, on one of those ESQ CDs. I honestly rarely gave a lot of listens to the non-Beach Boy tracks on those CDs, even the tracks done by BB offspring, so I had completely forgotten this song had already made it out all the way back in 2008. Ill have to listen to that 2008 mix/version and see if there are any differences.
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Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread!
I dont know how much info is really available in terms of Carls alleged vetoing of Soulful Old Man Sunshine from the 1993 GV boxed set, but the impression I always got (which may be totally off) is that he had a larger distaste or skepticism or uneasiness about the song, or at least the extant recording. I think he still remembered it being an unfinished song, and perhaps the Shunshine thing was just one example of it clearly being unfinished, as they presumably would have gone back and fixed that if they had intended to release it back then. Indeed, I believe the 1998 Endless Harmony version of the song had to be stitched together from a few sources (resulting in some parts being mixed into wider stereo, some parts having more finished-sounding overdubs while others didnt, etc.) to make the most complete version.
Im not sure, but I have a vague recollection Al (or someone) didnt want Loop de Loop on the 1993 GV boxed set because it was considered unfinished.
Im not sure, but I have a vague recollection Al (or someone) didnt want Loop de Loop on the 1993 GV boxed set because it was considered unfinished.
It seems that the "Soulful" release is of a vintage edit of rough mixes spliced together back in the day by Dennis Dragon (who was Rick Henn's brother-in-law). Rick talks about it in a 1997 ESQ article (this was a year before the song's release). I first heard it when it was played down the phone line by David Leaf to Domenic Priore and me in '92, during the assembly of the '93 Good Vibrations box set. Meaning, it existed in that state back then, and based on Rick's comments, probably long before that.
As for "Loop" - correct, Al vetoed its release until '98 because he considered it unfinished until then.
Found an old post from 2006 from Mark Linett where he commented briefly on the track. Here's what he said back then regarding where the mix on EH came from:
The tape was a two-track that came from Rick Henn and was something he put together from old ruff mixes. Only the original tracking date with some overdubs exists on multi-track. The tape with the vocals is missing.
Mark
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,201.msg4160.html#msg4160
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Re: Salesman 1967: Craig Smith, Mike Nesmith, and Mike Love...and Brian?
Oh that would be so nice to have. But 31.25 dollars including shipping to my faraway overseas country just isn't affordable for me right now. Although "Country Girl" alone is worth that.![]()
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Re: 1998/1999 unreleased Al Jardine album
I'll have to A/B this version of "Waves of Love" to the previous version. It sounds pretty similar. It's definitely the "saxophone/soundcheck" version found on the first pressing of the 2012 CD (the one with the buried Carl vocal), with possibly some mix variations.
The other two are cool to hear. "Jenny Clover" is another Al piano ballad in the mold of "And I Always Will." Al's voice sounds great; the song is okay. I have to give it more listens.
"Middle of Nowhere" very much *screams* NINETIES!!!!! This reminds me of what "Summer in Paradise" could have sounded like with better production. But yeah, it's very early-mid 90s. The closest comparison in the BB world I could think of is that it sounds a bit production-wise and style-wise like the 1997 "The Wilsons" album. Nice Matt lead and backing from Al. Very much sounds like an attempt at a "The Jardines" album.
I don't think either of these songs are as good as the best stuff on "Postcards", but they're nice to listen to and more indicators that Al probably has like 50 more tracks buried that we've never heard.
The other two are cool to hear. "Jenny Clover" is another Al piano ballad in the mold of "And I Always Will." Al's voice sounds great; the song is okay. I have to give it more listens.
"Middle of Nowhere" very much *screams* NINETIES!!!!! This reminds me of what "Summer in Paradise" could have sounded like with better production. But yeah, it's very early-mid 90s. The closest comparison in the BB world I could think of is that it sounds a bit production-wise and style-wise like the 1997 "The Wilsons" album. Nice Matt lead and backing from Al. Very much sounds like an attempt at a "The Jardines" album.
I don't think either of these songs are as good as the best stuff on "Postcards", but they're nice to listen to and more indicators that Al probably has like 50 more tracks buried that we've never heard.
With all due respect, I just cannot see how you think what we are calling the saxophone version of "Waves of Love" the soundcheck recording. The entire thing seems much cleaner and more thought through than the other version. It has Carl's vocal couched in harmonies (improving it greatly) instead of standing alone, it has Al singing in a much more reasonable key, and just overall has a much more "considered" arrangement in my opinion. It just sounds more 2010s than the other one. The other just kinda rides along with it's "Help Me Rhonda" type organ part and and sounds like something that woulda...for lack of a better phrase....something that woulda been recorded at a soundcheck.
Now perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that despite what I feel many on this board may think, it may have been backwards.
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Re: Beach Boys 2019 Tour Thread
Myonlysunshine -- where DID you get that awesome Wild Honey hoodie?
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Re: Brian Wilson - 2019 Tour Thread
Murphy's, California September 14th, is cancelled...scheduling conflict.![]()
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
Looking forward to reading this for sure. The combustibility of the band in the 1970-72 period is actually a key aspect of what happened to them, and any first-hand accounts relating to that are incredibly valuable. Bruce's behavior in this time frame is certainly bizarre, but by 1972 he must have realized that he was swimming upstream with his schmaltzmeister material. He probably saw Don Goldberg's stuff as another way for his songs to be further marginalized.![]()
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Re: The Official BB You Tube Thread
The Beach Boys in Disorderlies (1987) (with the Fat Boys)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6SVLVjD2nU
Modern day Mike Love outside the door!
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Re: Beach Boys 2019 Tour Thread
Myonlysunshine -- where DID you get that awesome Wild Honey hoodie?
A company called 3D royal tees made and sold them for a limited time last year. Unfortunately they are not available anymore, but Ive seen some of these hoodies pop up for sale on eBay since then. Along with Wild Honey they made hoodies in this same style using the Friends, Surfs Up, Smiley Smile, Endless Summer, Love You, and Keepin the Summer Alive album artwork.
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Re: All things TSS packaging, presentation and booklet etc
I have now gotten Al, Mike, and Bruce's autograph's added to my Light-Up set:
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I also want to mention that while I was preparing to get the box set signed by Mike and Bruce recently, I noticed the numbers "071" printed in gold lettering on the inside of my set's lid. This number isn't featured inside the lid of my normal box set. In my previous post in this thread I stated:
I am now skeptical of this claim. Normally I would trust Perry, but in this case I think he might have his info wrong. He claims in his book that the Light-Up Editions were a non-numbered set and that only 50 were made. But I would have to think that a gold plated number like "071" on the inside of the lid indicates that it is in fact part of a numbered set and that obviously at least 100 of them were made. I will try to email Perry at some point to confirm.![]()
I also want to mention that while I was preparing to get the box set signed by Mike and Bruce recently, I noticed the numbers "071" printed in gold lettering on the inside of my set's lid. This number isn't featured inside the lid of my normal box set. In my previous post in this thread I stated:
Quote
According to Perry Cox's new "Price and Reference Guide for The Beach Boys American Records" book only 50 of these light-up editions were produced, but less were sold
I am now skeptical of this claim. Normally I would trust Perry, but in this case I think he might have his info wrong. He claims in his book that the Light-Up Editions were a non-numbered set and that only 50 were made. But I would have to think that a gold plated number like "071" on the inside of the lid indicates that it is in fact part of a numbered set and that obviously at least 100 of them were made. I will try to email Perry at some point to confirm.
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Re: ON Air: B*R*i*A*N{ö} (Beach Boys-comix
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Re: An Autobiography by Don Goldberg
This sounds like a very interesting book. I actually really like all of the Don Goldberg tracks that I've heard. Sweet and Bitter is one of my favorite Mike leads. I honestly don't think Don is much of a singer, but the full version of "In The Country" would have been cool to hear with Al or Carl singing lead. Or even Brian doing a non falsetto type of lead. The thing that confuses me the most about the song is how the full band version and the commonly booted version are so vastly different. This whole story gives me an interesting "What if?" question. Imagine that Don Goldberg had replaced Bruce in the group, and the whole history with Blondie and Ricki(that might not be the right spelling lol) had never happened.![]()
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Re: 1998/1999 unreleased Al Jardine album
I have the Esq discs and will check it to see if middle of nowhere is on it. I think there were two or three Esq discs and I have them all. As far as the sax version of ways of love I consider the more prominent one with Carl's vocal a better version. Personal preference.![]()
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Re: 1998/1999 unreleased Al Jardine album
I'll have to A/B this version of "Waves of Love" to the previous version. It sounds pretty similar. It's definitely the "saxophone/soundcheck" version found on the first pressing of the 2012 CD (the one with the buried Carl vocal), with possibly some mix variations.
The other two are cool to hear. "Jenny Clover" is another Al piano ballad in the mold of "And I Always Will." Al's voice sounds great; the song is okay. I have to give it more listens.
"Middle of Nowhere" very much *screams* NINETIES!!!!! This reminds me of what "Summer in Paradise" could have sounded like with better production. But yeah, it's very early-mid 90s. The closest comparison in the BB world I could think of is that it sounds a bit production-wise and style-wise like the 1997 "The Wilsons" album. Nice Matt lead and backing from Al. Very much sounds like an attempt at a "The Jardines" album.
I don't think either of these songs are as good as the best stuff on "Postcards", but they're nice to listen to and more indicators that Al probably has like 50 more tracks buried that we've never heard.
The other two are cool to hear. "Jenny Clover" is another Al piano ballad in the mold of "And I Always Will." Al's voice sounds great; the song is okay. I have to give it more listens.
"Middle of Nowhere" very much *screams* NINETIES!!!!! This reminds me of what "Summer in Paradise" could have sounded like with better production. But yeah, it's very early-mid 90s. The closest comparison in the BB world I could think of is that it sounds a bit production-wise and style-wise like the 1997 "The Wilsons" album. Nice Matt lead and backing from Al. Very much sounds like an attempt at a "The Jardines" album.
I don't think either of these songs are as good as the best stuff on "Postcards", but they're nice to listen to and more indicators that Al probably has like 50 more tracks buried that we've never heard.
With all due respect, I just cannot see how you think what we are calling the saxophone version of "Waves of Love" the soundcheck recording. The entire thing seems much cleaner and more thought through than the other version. It has Carl's vocal couched in harmonies (improving it greatly) instead of standing alone, it has Al singing in a much more reasonable key, and just overall has a much more "considered" arrangement in my opinion. It just sounds more 2010s than the other one. The other just kinda rides along with it's "Help Me Rhonda" type organ part and and sounds like something that woulda...for lack of a better phrase....something that woulda been recorded at a soundcheck.
Now perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that despite what I feel many on this board may think, it may have been backwards.
This back and forth seemed strangely familiar, and sure enough we had this same debate back in 2012 regarding the variations of this song. Which is totally fine and all in good fun.
To be clear, I dont think any version of the song is purely a raw soundcheck performance. Every version has been sweetened/overdubbed, etc.
What I recall hearing back years ago was that Waves of Love began as something Al laid down during a soundcheck; this is presumably where Carl was present and added his vocal contribution. From there, varying amounts of additional overdubs were added to the different versions.
What Im saying is that the saxophone version, meaning the version in the lower key and with Carls vocals buried in a stack of voices (the version included on the first US copies of the 2012 CD, and a variation of which is now on Dvoskins Soundcloud), sounds MUCH closer in *ambience* to what a soundcheck recording would sound like. Meaning, everything is wetter in the mix (more echo/reverb). The basic track elements of this version are the only thing in any version that sound plausibly like they could have been tracked during on on-stage soundcheck sort of setting. Even on this version, clearly more vocals have been overdubbed, with some stacked Al vocals being most obvious.
The second version (the version issued on the download version of the album back in 2012, and an alternate mix of which was also included on the Japanese SHM CD in 2012) sounds essentially *completely* re-recorded in a studio setting, with only Carls vocal from the other version flown in (and done so in a rather odd fashion, more on that in a moment). The key is different, and everything is dryer and punchier. The key is higher, so Als voice, while still sounding quite good, does sound a bit strained in places. Als vocal also sounds newer (meaning he sounds older), also suggesting the first saxophone version likely includes a 90s Al lead vocal while this second version includes an Al vocal cut probably in the late 2000s. It also sounds like what they did on this version is to extract Carls vocal from the vocal stack of the first version, and then isolate it and fit it into the higher key of the second version. This is why, to me, Carls more isolated vocal on this version has always sounded a bit odd.
Now, further complicating things is that I dont think even Al or Dvoskin have been consistent on which version is *THE* version of the song they want to establish. When confusion first reigned back in 2012 when both versions were simultaneously released via CD and download respectively, I believe Al mentioned in an interview that it was the saxophone/CD version that was the error so to speak. That was the version they didnt want to release, and it was in fact the second, higher key version issued as a download that was the finished version. Supporting that this was the case back in 2012 was that it was that second version that was issued later in 2012 on the Japanese SHM CD, along with an alternate mix of that same version. Also supporting this was that they kept this second version up as the download version of the song, and of course a digital download is something that can much more easily be fixed/replaced if something is in error, as opposed to CD pressings which are out there and obviously much harder to recall or replace.
Everything (other than the screw-up of releasing two vastly different versions happening in the first place) up to this point made sense to me. Regardless of which version one likes more (I like both, truly), that second, higher-key version certainly sounded like a more dense version with more going on, and sounded much more like a modern in-studio recording, and it was clearly attempting to more prominently feature Carls vocal contribution. And Al was seeming to establish *that* version as the go-to version. So it made sense that *that* version was the final or finished version that they were trying to establish.
The new alternate mix on Dvoskins Soundcloud is a variation of that first version, however. Now, we dont know for sure which version Dvoskin and Al were very recently shown on Facebook finishing up, but I have a suspicion they have now gone back to that first saxophone soundcheck sounding version and are working with that one again. Which makes perfect sense only in that everything these guys seem to do with this song tends to make NO sense.
Ironically, Id wager its quite possible whatever version Al and Dvoskin issue in the future is going to be yet *another* mix of one version or the other, which will mean well likely be up to FIVE different mixes of this song.
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Re: 1998/1999 unreleased Al Jardine album
I have the Esq discs and will check it to see if middle of nowhere is on it. I think there were two or three Esq discs and I have them all. As far as the sax version of ways of love I consider the more prominent one with Carl's vocal a better version. Personal preference.
I think "Middle of Nowhere" was on the 2008 (loosely) Dennis-themed ESQ CD.
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